Comments on: The Unnecessary "That" http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that author & screenwriter Tue, 06 Dec 2011 02:16:44 +0000 hourly 1 By: aaron54 http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that#comment-53 aaron54 Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:55:59 +0000 http://www.kriscramer.com/?p=65#comment-53 Bubba is correct about the dangler. There general rule goes something like this: In restrictive relative clauses, object pronouns are not necessary; in non-restrictive relative clauses, object pronouns are necessary; and subject pronouns are always necessary. If the "that" is before a verb, it is likely a subject pronoun (subject of the verb "is"--even though it references the direct object of the entire sentence). It should not be removed. The comma has nothing to do with it and should not be used since the book seems to be restrictive in this particular case (since the writer used "that" to describe the relativity of the book to start with, it should be assumed other books are in the room). Kris is right, also. But the problem with having a dangler is not that it modifies the wrong thing, but that the reader does not instantly know what it modifies. Keep the confusion to a minimum by leaving "that" there in that particular instance; you can still get rid of all the others. Bubba is correct about the dangler. There general rule goes something like this:
In restrictive relative clauses, object pronouns are not necessary; in non-restrictive relative clauses, object pronouns are necessary; and subject pronouns are always necessary.

If the "that" is before a verb, it is likely a subject pronoun (subject of the verb "is"--even though it references the direct object of the entire sentence). It should not be removed. The comma has nothing to do with it and should not be used since the book seems to be restrictive in this particular case (since the writer used "that" to describe the relativity of the book to start with, it should be assumed other books are in the room).

Kris is right, also. But the problem with having a dangler is not that it modifies the wrong thing, but that the reader does not instantly know what it modifies. Keep the confusion to a minimum by leaving "that" there in that particular instance; you can still get rid of all the others.

]]> By: JJB http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that#comment-52 JJB Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:46:21 +0000 http://www.kriscramer.com/?p=65#comment-52 These examples are fine, as far as they go, but they refer to only one possible usage of "that." I don't mind that Kris has been so restrictive, but to say (that) you can eliminate that word nine times in ten? That's crazy. Oh, as to the woman and the nightstand--it's a comma that makes the distinction. 1) She glances at the photo sitting on the nightstand. 2) She glances at the photo, sitting on the nightstand (although of course this reads better as "Sitting on the nightstand, she glances at the photo"). These examples are fine, as far as they go, but they refer to only one possible usage of "that." I don't mind that Kris has been so restrictive, but to say (that) you can eliminate that word nine times in ten? That's crazy.

Oh, as to the woman and the nightstand--it's a comma that makes the distinction.

1) She glances at the photo sitting on the nightstand.
2) She glances at the photo, sitting on the nightstand (although of course this reads better as "Sitting on the nightstand, she glances at the photo").

]]> By: J-school sticking points | Karlie Justus http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that#comment-51 J-school sticking points | Karlie Justus Thu, 04 Feb 2010 06:20:54 +0000 http://www.kriscramer.com/?p=65#comment-51 [...] The superfluous “that” – Most of the time, copy has to be squeezed to fit. Not just in the newspaper world, but in press releases, Web copy and even speeches. Ninety-eight percent of the time, he told us, the word “that” isn’t necessary. Every time I edit my work, I’ll find at least two or three in my copy that serve no purpose. (BTW, that last sentence falls into the other 2 percent. Oh, and the sentence before this one.) Kris Cramer agrees. [...] [...] The superfluous “that” – Most of the time, copy has to be squeezed to fit. Not just in the newspaper world, but in press releases, Web copy and even speeches. Ninety-eight percent of the time, he told us, the word “that” isn’t necessary. Every time I edit my work, I’ll find at least two or three in my copy that serve no purpose. (BTW, that last sentence falls into the other 2 percent. Oh, and the sentence before this one.) Kris Cramer agrees. [...]

]]> By: Kris http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that#comment-50 Kris Sun, 10 Jan 2010 22:46:23 +0000 http://www.kriscramer.com/?p=65#comment-50 Hi Bubba, If "sitting on the nightstand" modified the woman instead of the photo, it would be written like this: "She, sitting on the nightstand, glances at the photo." But, you're right about the sentence not being as pretty as it could be. :) ~ Kris Hi Bubba,

If "sitting on the nightstand" modified the woman instead of the photo, it would be written like this:
"She, sitting on the nightstand, glances at the photo."

But, you're right about the sentence not being as pretty as it could be. :)

~ Kris

]]> By: bubba http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that#comment-49 bubba Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:43:10 +0000 http://www.kriscramer.com/?p=65#comment-49 She glances at the photo that is sitting on the nightstand. I believe this sentence still needs the word "that", unless your remove the entire prhrase, "that is sitting"; otherwis , you will be left with a dangling participle. Who is sitting on the nightstand, the photo or the lady? She glances at the photo that is sitting on the nightstand.

I believe this sentence still needs the word "that", unless your remove the entire prhrase, "that is sitting"; otherwis , you will be left with a dangling participle. Who is sitting on the nightstand, the photo or the lady?

]]> By: Kris http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that#comment-48 Kris Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:03:36 +0000 http://www.kriscramer.com/?p=65#comment-48 Hi Dean, Isn't it amazing how we use the word so often without even realizing it? The more aware of it you are, the more you notice it being used all over the place, even where it's not needed. What amazes me the most is when it turns up in news headlines. If the goal is to make the headline sound catchy while keeping it as concise as possible, you'd expect somewhere along the way the writer or editor would realize the unnecessary "that" could be removed to make the headline even more concise. ~ Kris Hi Dean,

Isn't it amazing how we use the word so often without even realizing it? The more aware of it you are, the more you notice it being used all over the place, even where it's not needed. What amazes me the most is when it turns up in news headlines. If the goal is to make the headline sound catchy while keeping it as concise as possible, you'd expect somewhere along the way the writer or editor would realize the unnecessary "that" could be removed to make the headline even more concise.

~ Kris

]]> By: Dean http://www.kriscramer.com/the-unnecessary-that#comment-47 Dean Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:51:30 +0000 http://www.kriscramer.com/?p=65#comment-47 I started a new job about 2 years ago where I had to document a lot. When I first started submitting papers my superiors pointed out how many times I used "that" and I realized how it had seeped into everything I wrote. I went back to my novel and used MS word to highlight every instance of "that" in the document. There were thousands. It was the most used word over four letters in my entire novel besides names. I cut out approximately 1700 words by going through and deleting all the unnecessary ones. I started a new job about 2 years ago where I had to document a lot. When I first started submitting papers my superiors pointed out how many times I used "that" and I realized how it had seeped into everything I wrote. I went back to my novel and used MS word to highlight every instance of "that" in the document. There were thousands. It was the most used word over four letters in my entire novel besides names. I cut out approximately 1700 words by going through and deleting all the unnecessary ones.

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